Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

33

Over half the world population have never heard of Jehovah's Witnesses

by alanv in

just looked through some of the largest populations in the world and ten of them add up to 3,500,000,000. how many witnesses serve these 10 countries.

no more than 60,000. the largest are china and india which together have around 2.5 billion people.

so is the jw good news being spread earthwide.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Blondie, I've heard that justification as well--namely that just like Jesus said the disciples wouldn't complete the circuit of the cities, the JWs may not make it to every country. The problem is that--as Mad Sweeney points out--such an interpretation contradicts Matt. 24:14. Either the good news must be preached in all the inhabited earth before the end comes...or it doesn't. Jesus said yes; the WTS said no.

This is a great example of the sort of theological pretzels into which the WTS ties itself. The WTS must emphasize the importance of its preaching work (hence the constant use of Matt. 24:14) but it must also make it seem like The End is imminent. If Matt. 24:14 really means what it says, then The End CANNOT be imminent. Thus, the WTS must twist Matt. 24:14 to mean something that it does not say--namely that the gospel must be preached to some portion of the inhabited earth before The End comes.

And to think we actually took this nonsense seriously...

72

ANOTHER GILEAD STUDENT

by not sure yet in

i've been reading this forum a for some time now.

since i find myself on a crossroad i decided to start participating.

i was at gilead in 1980 and remember standing in de elevator alone with ray franz, how just gave us a lecture.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Welcome to the board. If you would like to reconnect with Ray, his email address is [email protected]. He is up in years, as you know, but he does a good job responding to emails. It may take a few days, but you'll hear back from him.

33

Over half the world population have never heard of Jehovah's Witnesses

by alanv in

just looked through some of the largest populations in the world and ten of them add up to 3,500,000,000. how many witnesses serve these 10 countries.

no more than 60,000. the largest are china and india which together have around 2.5 billion people.

so is the jw good news being spread earthwide.

Olin Moyles Ghost

The realization that (1) JWs really teach that you must be a JW to survive Armageddon and (2) billions of people have never heard of JWs was a key factor in my "awakening." In fact, my first topic posted on this board related to this issue.

I've heard the "community responsibility" cop-out. As far as I know, it's still an official doctrine, but I don't think it's been mentioned in print in a long time (decades, perhaps). Only older or more studious JWs would be familiar with it today.

I've found that most modern JWs--especially those in their 20s and 30s--don't believe you must be a JW to survive Armageddon. Rather, they believe that God and Jesus will read people's hearts. That's what I used to believe. The problem is that this doctrine is not in WT publications. In fact, it contradicts established JW doctrine (for example, the "mark for survival" in Ezekiel).

When I point this out to JWs, they fall back on the "trust in Jehovah" line and say that they're just leaving it in his hands. The important thing now is to be active in the preaching work in order to avoid bloodguilt. Of course, by saying that preaching is required to avoid bloodguilt, this is a tacit admission that God will kill people who don't receive the JW message. So, either way the JWs can't win. The circular logic is making me dizzy.

60

The Rise of the Conscious Class

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

"i believe in one god, and no more; and i hope for happiness beyond this life.

i believe the equality of man, and i believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.

but, lest it should be supposed that i believe many other things in addition to these, i shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things i do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Great post by the OP. In addition to the "conscious class," I know lots of JWs, especially "born-ins" under age 45, who could probably be classified as "potential future members of the conscious class."

These include the childless married couples who both work full-time, drive nice cars, own a home, and take lots of vacations. These include the parents who are encouraging their children to attend university. These include the men in their 30s who have no interest in serving as MS or elders and are happy to put in their 6-8 hours of "service" per month. They're the ones that last week's WT classified as "coasting along" in the congregation.

It's just another religion to these folks. They don't feel any burning desire to witness to others. They don't do any personal study aside from spending five minutes underlining the WT before the Sunday meeting. Deep down, they know something is wrong, but there are forces keeping them from taking any further action (primarily family, friends, and "where else can we go?"). But when the status quo changes--for example, if a family member is DF'd--that may be the catalyst for taking the next step.

The WTS knows that there are LOTS of these JWs out there--especially in the USA and other developed countries.

35

Doesn't the WTS say that blood can't carry oxygen for the first 24 hours after a transfusion?

by Olin Moyles Ghost in

some jws have told me that blood transfusions cannot save lives in the case of catastrophic bleeding (for example, resulting from an auto accident) because blood cannot carry oxygen for 24 hours after it has been transfused.

is this in print in wt publications?

it must be, because i've heard it on multiple occasions from different jws.. i find it very hard to believe that such a statement is true.

Olin Moyles Ghost

@Moshe: I absolutely agree that it's not a medical decision--it's a religious one. That's what I was taught "from infancy" by my JW parents. But for years the WTS has tried to make it appear that it's actually doing its membership (and the world at large) a favor by pointing out the dangers of blood. The result is that when confronted with the shaky scriptural basis for the WTS blood doctrine, many JWs resort to the "blood doesn't save lives anyway" argument.

35

Doesn't the WTS say that blood can't carry oxygen for the first 24 hours after a transfusion?

by Olin Moyles Ghost in

some jws have told me that blood transfusions cannot save lives in the case of catastrophic bleeding (for example, resulting from an auto accident) because blood cannot carry oxygen for 24 hours after it has been transfused.

is this in print in wt publications?

it must be, because i've heard it on multiple occasions from different jws.. i find it very hard to believe that such a statement is true.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Thanks yknot. It would be interesting to read the full articles quoted in that 1977 WT publication. But even taking the excerpts at face value, they seem to be saying:

Transfused red cells cannot carry oxygen at full capacity for about 24 hours post-transfusion. [This is different from the way it was relayed to me. The JWs told me that transfused blood cannot carry oxygen for 24 hours. There's a big difference between carrying some oxygen and not carrying any oxygen.]
Blood that's been stored for more than ten days (at least using the standard practices of the 1970s) does not carry as much oxygen as fresh blood. [To me that's simply saying that it's better to use recently-donated blood.]

This is just another example of where a little knowledge can be so dangerous. You've got these JWs with no medical training making blanket statements about how transfused blood behaves in the body. They make these statements based on selective quotations in WTS publications from 30+ years ago. I'm sure the WTS is more than happy for its followers to mis-interpret these quotes as meaning that blood simply doesn't carry oxygen for the first 24 hours post-transfusion.

35

Doesn't the WTS say that blood can't carry oxygen for the first 24 hours after a transfusion?

by Olin Moyles Ghost in

some jws have told me that blood transfusions cannot save lives in the case of catastrophic bleeding (for example, resulting from an auto accident) because blood cannot carry oxygen for 24 hours after it has been transfused.

is this in print in wt publications?

it must be, because i've heard it on multiple occasions from different jws.. i find it very hard to believe that such a statement is true.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Some JWs have told me that blood transfusions cannot save lives in the case of catastrophic bleeding (for example, resulting from an auto accident) because blood cannot carry oxygen for 24 hours after it has been transfused. Is this in print in WT publications? It must be, because I've heard it on multiple occasions from different JWs.

I find it very hard to believe that such a statement is true. Perhaps blood doesn't reach its full oxygen-carrying capacity until some period of time has passed, but I highly doubt that blood simply serves as a volume expander for the first 24 hours.

Does anyone have more info on this--or can someone point me to some information?

385

NEW GENERATION DEFINED -- April 15, 2010 Watchtower

by Ultimate Reality in

from jw.org, here is the new definition of the generation from the april 15, 2010 watchtower.. .

article: holy spirits role in the outworking of jehovahs purpose.

13 third, holy spirit is at work in bringing bible.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Wow, this is amazing! So according to the WT generation of "generation," a child born today--in 2010--is actually part of Tom Brokaw's "Greatest Generation" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greatest_Generation) because there are still plenty of WWII vets alive today...

18

Ambiguities surrounding the enforcement of Watchtower rules

by drew sagan in

i could write a good bit on this topic, but thought i would simply open this up for discussion.

here are a few things to think about:.

- the watchtower has no fundamental writing that it turns to as its foundational text.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Drew, your last point about inconsistent (or even contradictory) rules in WT literature is well-taken. Some JWs have a talent for finding WT articles that justify whatever they want to do. For example, in the past I knew some fun-loving JWs who were constantly being accused of "stumbling" other JWs. These fun-loving Witnesses found some statements in WT literature that a strong Christian can't (or shouldn't) be stumbled--in other words, if you got stumbled it was your own fault.

Situations like that are what lead to "liberal" or "conservative" congregations, circuits, etc. The WTS writes its literature in such wishy-washy fashion, trying to create the illusion that we're all mature Christians and they aren't making rules. Most JWs see right through it and realize that when the WTS says things like "most mature Christians would not do XYZ" and understand that the WTS is saying not to do XYZ. But others (like myself in a previous life) would see this as a loophole and say "well, maybe most wouldn't do it...but they're not saying I can't." That's where elders come into play.

If a body of elders interprets WTS directives in a strict way, that body can impose its interpretation on the congregation. This has its most immediate impact on servants/elders/pioneers because the body gets to decide whether they are "exemplary." And this "exemplary-ness" is based on the opinion of the body of elders. Period. But this can also have an impact on the rank & file.

For example, the WTS has had general directions regarding parties and weddings for years. The WTS has often cautioned against having large parties. Some bodies of elders understand this to be a rule that JW parties must be small (no more than X number of attendees). If a body decides this, then if someone wants to throw a big party, the elders and their families would discourage it--and at the very least refuse to attend. This would have a chilling effect on the congregation. Most good JWs wouldn't want to attend a party that is disapproved by the elders, and most JWs wouldn't want to throw a party that's disapproved by the elders. Thus, the result of these elders' interpretation of WTS rules would be no more parties larger than a certain size.

154

JW Apologists please tell me where your God was when .....

by wobble in

during the dark days of the second world war , the monsters that ran a concentration camp decided to hang a child.. they hung the poor little chap so that it took half an hour for him to die, all the while making the other inmates look into the face of the child.. where was your god then ?

was he not strong enough to do anything or did he just not care ?.

if the first then he is a very weak god, if the second then,.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Reminds me of the following quote: "Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"